|gibson17||10/7/2017 5:37 PM|
|Fishman Loudbox PRO-LBX-300|
Hello all. I have a Fishman Loudbox PRO-LBX-300 amplifier that is not working. It was left on by accident for a few days and upon discovery the fuse was blown. I replaced the 2a slow blow fuse and powered it on. It made a loud buzz and then immediately blew the fuse. I checked the googlewebs for a schematic and it brought me here:
It doesn't seem that the schematics are right for my application. On the main board mounted to the heatsink it is labeled: Loudbox Cafť PowerAmp, rev. 3.0, 459-000-024. One of the other boards is labeled: Fishman Transducers, rev 2.0, 459-000-032.
I can use a multi meter and can solder fairly well.
Where do I start? Thank you in advance for your time.
|gibson17||10/7/2017 5:38 PM|
|I should also add that one of the boards has a 2005 date.|
|Mick Bailey||10/8/2017 12:55 AM|
|My guess is you have a shorted output device and the loud buzz is the high ripple on the PSU caused by excessive loading. Disconnect the speaker & tweeter, power up the amp with a new fuse and measure across the outputs for the tweeter and main power amps. If you have more than a few mV DC then this points to a short.|
If you have a variac then you can bring up the amp slowly and monitor the output for DC. If you don't already have one then a bulb limiter is a useful protection device while you're troubleshooting.
|gibson17||10/8/2017 11:56 AM|
|Thank you for the reply. Upon closer inspection, the yellow wire off the HP plug is disconnected. It appears the lug somehow broke off. I tried to attach a jumper to see if this was the problem and my breaker popped. When I reset the breaker and left the yellow wire unattached the noise was there. I ran it through a variac and at 10 volts it was making noise. I then took out the speakers and disconnected them all and put my meter on the wires for the tweeter. No voltage. I looked closer at the Power Supply board that is connected to the heatsink and there appears to be a small cap broken off with the trace from the board attached. I'll try and successfully post some photos. Thoughts?|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 11:58 AM|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 11:59 AM|
|Anytime the yellow wire is attached it either pops my breaker, or blows the 2a slo blow fuse.|
|Mick Bailey||10/8/2017 2:35 PM|
|Are you referring to the yellow wire coming off the mains socket? If so, I can't quite see where the wiring runs but you appear to have black,white,green/yellow leads already connected and it looks to me like that yellow lead does not belong there. None of the pictures of the socket that turn up show an additional terminal. The capacitor is another matter - it's probably shorted and needs replacing.|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 8:40 PM|
|This is the yellow I am talking about. [ATTACH=CONFIG]45235[/ATTACH]|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 8:43 PM|
|Here's the other end. It had a lug in it, so I assume It had to be connected to something...|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 8:48 PM|
|There's no obvious place to my eye that the yellow would be, I've looked over the boards and this doesn't appear to have gone to the transformer, it was laying right near the main power socket, I assumed it went here, but I suppose it could have been just extra material cut off.|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 8:51 PM|
|I also discovered another capacitor broken or blown off... Here's a few better photos.|
|gibson17||10/8/2017 8:52 PM|
Sorry for the multiple messages, I don't know how to attach photos more than one at a time.
|Enzo||10/9/2017 12:16 AM|
|Where does the blue wire next to it go, perhaps to the tweeter? And if so is there a second wire on the tweeter? It looks like the male pin for the female on the yellow wire broke off of something, perhaps off the tweeter?|
To assist my theory, do the red and black wires go to the woofer? I mean the red and black right with the blue and yellow, not the lone red and black to the left.
This is just a thought, it might be something else of course.
|Jazz P Bass||10/9/2017 12:35 AM|
If so, then that is the fuse out power wire. (broken off)
|Mick Bailey||10/9/2017 1:33 AM|
|None of the pictures I can find of that socket show a terminal coming off in that position. If this were the case it would be connected directly to the unfused live connection. It also looks too small for a mains connector.|
|gibson17||10/9/2017 8:55 AM|
What about the caps that a broken off the trace? Should I replace them, or just try to reconnect them?
|gibson17||10/9/2017 8:56 AM|
|Enzo||10/9/2017 10:32 AM|
|Then the yellow wire is the output of the tweeter amp, and if you connected it to the mains fuse holder, you probably blew the tweeter amp.|
|gibson17||10/9/2017 10:55 AM|
|gibson17||10/9/2017 11:11 AM|
|Could contact of the output with the mains caused the caps to pop off like that?|
|Mick Bailey||10/9/2017 1:47 PM|
|Maybe, but who knows. All you know is that if the connector didn't accidentally touch the mains you made sure that it did and you could have more damage than you began with. Disconnect the speaker and tweeter outputs and see if there's DC on either output. Which part of the circuit are the damaged caps located?|
|gibson17||10/9/2017 2:55 PM|
On the 4 wire connector, there was DC voltage present on Blue/Yellow even at very low voltage, but much less on Red/black and not so much at low voltage.
On the 2 wire connector for the woofer there was DC voltage present even at low voltage. The unit was also drawing quite a few amps even at low voltage. 4amps before the 2a slow blow gave way.
The damaged caps seems to be right near the r58 resistor and right below the vr2 trim pot.
|Mick Bailey||10/10/2017 8:16 AM|
|You have three power amps that need to be checked. Plus your mains voltage could have appeared on the main PSU rails momentarily (by way of an output to supply short in U5) prior to the fuse blowing. You'll need to establish that all the DC voltages are correct and that you're not missing one of the supply rails and eliminate the possibility of excessive current draw in the PSU. The only way to do this is either to isolate the power supply or remove the excessive load so that the amp can power up. The tweeter amp chip is almost certainly blown and I'd carefully remove it to eliminate it. Sometimes the supply pins read low resistance to the output pin and give a clearer indication of failure. Worthwhile just to take a measurement. The output devices on the other two amps need checking for shorts. You should also carefully inspect the board for any other visible damage. Before embarking on any repair I would establish what's shorted/damaged. Could be you have multiple faults. Sometimes it's necessary to remove the output transistors just to get to the point where an amp can be powered without blowing the fuse and then work from there.|
What's your mains voltage?
|gibson17||10/12/2017 11:18 AM|
I have not gotten around to removing U5 yet. Should I reconnect the caps on the back since there are two that need attention or should I wait to get walked through it?
|Mick Bailey||10/13/2017 8:10 AM|
|I think you're measuring the input voltage and assume you're on 120v mains.|
I'm referring to checking the DC output voltages. Take a look at the PSU and you should have +/- 33v and +/- 14v. Also check for AC - those supplies should be pretty ripple-free with no load. These voltages have to be correct before moving on. Don't reconnect the old caps - they need replacing.
|gibson17||11/10/2017 10:07 AM|
|gibson17||1/23/2018 2:29 PM|
|Hello all. I sent the board into fishman for repairs. I received it, and installed it into the amp. Upon power up, the amp is buzzing and there are no lights coming on for power or mute and the controls do nothing. When I push the phantom power in, the buzzing is about half of what it is without it the button depressed. Transformer issue? Please advise.|
|The Dude||1/23/2018 4:17 PM|
|I doubt a transformer failure. Measure the "buzz" at the speaker jack. Is it AC or DC and what is the level.|
|gibson17||1/23/2018 4:42 PM|
|Hello Dude, It looks like with the phantom off it's 64.6mv AC, and with phantom on, it's 39.3mv AC. I also measured on DC and got .7mv with both phantom on and off. Also was starting to get an overheating electronics smell, which I suppose could be from the board getting serviced. Also, still no lights on the control panel, which is odd.|
|The Dude||1/23/2018 4:50 PM|
|Ok. Nothing ridiculous like full rail voltage. Double check that you hooked everything up correctly when you installed the new board. Make sure there are no bent pins in any connector. If you don't find any problems there, You'll need to troubleshoot the amp just as you normally would- new board or not. First check power supplies, etc.|
One thing to note and not talking specifically about Fishman: I have in the past gotten replacement modules that were missing parts. Are all the fuses, filter caps, etc. installed? I think my first step would be to visually scrutinize everything and make sure nothing was forgotten and that everything is hooked up correctly. Also, do you have it assembled? Sometimes grounds are carried by jacks, screws, etc. and partial assembly just won't do. The problem could be as simple as something isn't grounded.
|gibson17||1/23/2018 5:03 PM|
|They had no replacement boards available, so I sent in the board, and they repaired it. I gave it a quick look over upon arrival, and then installed it. I assembled the entire amp, minus the grille. When I noticed there was what appeared to be no power, I took the control panel off the top of the amp and gave that a quick look over, and didn't really notice anything out the ordinary. I'll disassemble the amp again and give the board a better look. I don't really think there's any way to hook up the wires incorrectly as they only go to their own spots. There's almost no way to put the wrong connector in the wrong place. Anyway, I'll look it over and report back...|
What do you make of no lights and no control on the control panel?
Thank you for your help.
|The Dude||1/23/2018 5:14 PM|
|Without knowing which schematic fits your amp (there are a few for this model), I'm just guessing. My thought would be that you are missing a low voltage supply. Maybe +5 or 15? Can you post a schematic for YOUR amp?|
|gibson17||1/23/2018 5:19 PM|
|Here's what fishman sent me.|
|The Dude||1/23/2018 5:40 PM|
|That schematic doesn't show the preamp, which would presumably show where LED power comes from. It does show us that there is only one secondary winding with a CT. Check your supplies. There are +&-33V and +&-15V. Also, make sure the tabs on your regulators are not shorted to ground and that the insulator between them is not compromised.|
Edit: I just found a preamp schematic, but not sure it's the right one. On the one I have, the power LED is supplied by the -15V supply, so check that supply for sure if you don't have a power LED.
|gibson17||1/23/2018 5:57 PM|
|Thank you. I have some work ahead of me. I will report back with my findings.|
|gibson17||2/11/2018 11:00 PM|
|Hello all, hereís what I have gotten to. I disassembled the amp, and looked for any issues from manufacturer repair on the power amp board. I didnít notice any; the work actually looks nicely done. I did notice that the components that I had removed appear to have been reused. Which is odd? I noticed this when I received the board, but didnít think anything of it. I figured I removed them in error, and they were still good, thus, reused. I checked for shorts between heat sink and tabs. All checked out fine. There is a cable between the cab and the control board that is epoxied in place, so it is semi not removable. It is the Molex connector cable that goes in between connector JP8 on the Power Amp board and preamp channel two control board. Quite a PIA to semi assemble this for diagnostic/repair. I pinned this cable out to make sure there were no shorts and there was continuity. It came back fine. I then semi assemble the amp in such a way that I can access everything, since preamp boards are stacked. I started at the mains to make sure I had power, which I obviously do. The transformer reads 27V AC on it, and that's what's coming into the power board. It goes through a Wheatstone bridge and changes from 27v ac to 35.4 and -37.6 vdc which on the schematic should be +/- 33V. I donít know what the acceptable tolerance levels for the voltages are for the voltages, +/- whatever %. On U10/U11 the VCC/VEE voltages are listed as +/- 14V. On U10 I am getting 13.1 and U11 reads -16.1. I follow this trough the power amp board up to the JP8 header. I have 13.1 at pin 2 and -16.1 at pin 4. This travels through the cable to the Preamp channel 2 board where there is 13.1 at pin two and -16.1 at pin 4. There is -16.1 running from the Preamp CH2 board to the Preamp CH1 board through JP3. I cannot find any positive voltage on the Preamp CH2 board. |
Where do I go from here?
|gibson17||2/11/2018 11:02 PM|
|Here's the entire schematic...|
|g1||2/12/2018 10:10 PM|
|The 3V less on the + side seems a bit much but that is something to look at later.|
You say you have +13 at JP8 pin2, it should also be at JP3 pin1, is it?
Check the solder connection at JP8 pin2. Ok? Follow the trace from pin2 and look for cracks or burns or blown out areas on the trace.
|J M Fahey||2/13/2018 3:46 AM|
|Just as a side comment, I fond it WEIRD the statedn power ratings written on thge schematics.|
Like Enzo said: "the amplifier is that thingie between power supply and speakers" .... with which I fully agree.Taking circuit losses aside, the +/-V rails are the peak voltage available for the load so in an SS amp they instantly define possible power out.
* Rails are +/-33V . Our friend gibson17 measured slightly higher values, still within spec.
* Bass amp states 100W into 4 ohms.
Impossible with +/-33V , just possible with +/-35/37V . Accepted.
* Mid amp is exact same circuit, same rails, but states 40W into 4 ohm? WTF?
It will put out exact same power as Bass amp, whatever that is, under the same load.
* Tweeter amp is an LM3886 , is fed exact same rails (which are too much for it) , now states 20W into 4 ohms. WTF?????
Ok, letīs see what the fresh measurements are, hope amp can be repaired.
|gibson17||2/13/2018 2:57 PM|
|Nothing on JP3 pin 1. I clearly don't know much, but I figured 13.1 was closer to the 14 spec than 16.2. I don't see any blown or burnt traces, but to my untrained eye they are hard to follow. They appear to disappear into some kind of turret or test point. It might have something to do with the dual layer board? I'm going to include a few photos so you can see what I am looking at. As Enzo pointed out, I don't have the correct terminology and knowledge, which is why I am here. I'm trying my best to not sound like a doofus and communicate as clear as possible. |
I didn't specify where I was getting -16.1 on JP3. I am assuming that the connectors are running in the same direction, pin wise as they are all running in a row right next to eachother. So if that's the case, then I am getting -16.1 on pin 8. If not, then it's pin 3. Either way, by the schematic, it looks like it shouldn't be on either. On JP3, every pin is reading - voltage, with the exception of what I think is pin 1 which is running 0.00.
Thank you all for your help, I really appreciate it.
|gibson17||2/13/2018 2:58 PM|
|Preamp Ch2 Board, Top.|
|gibson17||2/13/2018 3:03 PM|
|Preamp CH2 Board, Underside|
|g1||2/15/2018 8:07 PM|
As far as the connectors, look at the schematic (I've attached the applicable one as the zip file was a bit difficult to navigate).
JP8 shows 3 ground connections, pins 6,8, and 10. Now look at your photo from post #42 (underside). All the green mass is the ground plane. You can see 3 pins of the upper connector are connected to the green mass. So those are pins 6,8,& 10.
You should be able to similarly identify the other connectors, normally we would expect them to use the same orientation, pin 1 on the left. But always check to be sure if they are not identified.
Once you have the numbering figured out, do some resistance checks. Pin2 of JP8 should be connected to Pin1 of JP3.
Pin2 of JP8 should also connect to pin8 of all the 33078 IC's on that ch.2 board. And pin4 of JP8 should connect to the 33078 pin4's.
If you do not get direct connections, follow the traces. It will be tough with double sided board.
If everything checks out, look for grounds that are missing due to the disassembly.